Quote from Jakg :

And I thought monster cables were a con!

*faints*

Here, have a nice glass of cold water =)

Quote from chanoman315 :

i dont know how is this design shit.. but every new car is becoming hatchback, the STI, Mazda3, what else....

Dodge switched from the Neon to the Caliber...

only 60 or so here =( And I thought that was a decent pace, till I saw the record list. I don't see how someone could type that fast.

Hmm, is it possible that the driver in question has an older version of LFS maybe?

But then if they did how could they connect to the server?

LOL

Ahh the drama! This is better than watching Hollyoaks or whatever soap is on TV nowadays!

:gets some popcorn:

Quote from spiderbait90 :

Resembles the Focus in my opinion. But maybe thats what they were aiming for.

Hehe I was going to say the same thing... looks like a Subaru Focus

Quote from PMD9409 :

+1

Can you guys please wait for the NDA to be lifted so we can actually get some real info.

Sure thing, but I already know that I am not willing to pay that much for sim racing, even though I could... the whole point I race online is because it's cheap. I have paid a total of just over $200 to play for the last 6 years including a wheel, they are sextupling this figure if I want to continue playing for the next six years when I could continue playing other simulators for 0 more dollar input.

There are other ways of bringing great content into the game/simulator, other than increasing the amount each person pays for the service. There is no reason why LFS and other simulators can put in place a league structure that would increase the level of professionalism with the drivers, other than nobody has done it yet.

Last edited by Christopher Raemisch, Sat, 24 May 2008 09:27.

Sounds too structured for my taste. One of the things I enjoy about LFS is that I can hop on any server and find someone from virtually every country in the world.

I am assuming a setup like that would give the option to change the nation of the servers, but to me that just puts a bad taste in my mouth. I like diversity, and segregation is not a way I would like to go, which is what a system like that does. It's saying you are from here, so you use this server, and your from here, so use this server.

Sure you can still join other servers, but from the get go a driver is channeled into national servers like herding cattle... and lets face it everyone is lazy and most people will probably just stick to their national servers because they don't want to spend the effort to find the more international servers.

LOL saw the thread title before I looked at the creator and said 'I KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS GOING!" But then I realized that same person was you... :banghead:

Not sure why this discussion is happening still.

Shotglass you said yourself the problem is mainly on the 1st tier servers through the fact that many of the Tier2+ drivers are drivers that have been around a while. These servers are going to have learning curves by people racing on them.

There is a reason why they are on tier1, and it's most usually not because they like the cars. It's because they are lacking in some critical racing skills that would enable them to earn the points to be lifted into Tier2. If feel that if you think that these drivers can, and should have the capacity, to be trusted in every racing situation there needs to be a rethink on that strategy.


I have seem some races in club racing and, on the whole, I don't see anything that much different in terms of mistakes between tier1 and the lowest level of club racing/gokarts. Infact I could probably go through u-tube and karting incidents where the whole field was taken out in T1 by a noob...

What I am trying to convey is that when racing on T1 there are many risky and dangerous moves that cannot be sucessfully completed because the people these moves are being put on will not understand the risks involved with these maneuvers. Currently the only way to see these incidents is to physically be involved in them and see the outcome. On the whole the drivers I have seen on Tier1 are trying their damn hardest to stay out of people's way and avoid incidents.

Tell me, did you crawl or walked before you started running? It takes time to develop complex racing skills and this has to be taken into consideration when running on T1, it's a beginner's server.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

If this sim is designed with professional drivers in mind, does that mean they'll laser scan each track again whenever the surface changes?

I'm not surprised they're charging a fortune.

Well they better get 'cracken' because it will change virtually after every race a little bit and after every rainstorm.... every frost...every sunny day...

Quote from Dajmin :

I've not been watching this discussion since the $20 demo was announced, but if everyone stops just giving in to these things it's really easy to change the company's attitude.

If nobody pays the money for the demo, they will be forced to drop the price, or abandon it entirely. If only a handful of people sign up for the crazy subscription fee, they will need to rethink their strategy. It does work. Recently EA changed their plans because of the outcry made about one of their upcoming Pay2Play games (I forget which now, but I'm pretty sure it was EA).
But if people just mindlessly go ahead and pay it anyway, the company has no reason to complain - they make money.

And in a product like this where you NEED other players to make it worth the money, the company NEEDS as many accounts as it can get or the few who do sign up will quickly move on.

I am going to show my disapproval for their pricing structure by failing to purchase their product =)

Quote from SamH :

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!

LOL interesting comparison =)

At the end of the day, it's up to the community to decide on how well the system works. If you fail to submit a report, which literally can be done before the next race starts, a fraction of the time we spend on each report. A typical race report should take around a minute to complete.

Once your racing is done for the night it's another simple step to log into MYCTRA and clicking submit. Total time committed on behalf of the driver, less than two minutes if done efficiently.

If two minutes of your time isn't worth cleaning up the server, then it's not worth 24hours of our time to babysit everyone, which is what you are asking. Sorry, I have done my share of babysitting, you all are not children, and we will not treat you like ones. The server is only as good as the commitment the drivers give to the process in place. If you feel that this time commitment on your side is too much, maybe the CTRA is not a place for you.

I hop on the Tier 1 servers from time to time, I fail to see any major issues with the driving.

Another note, how can an admin catch all, or even any of the wreckers? They only have two eyes and only 1 screen, so the most they could see is 1 incident at a time accurately. Then the problem arises how will that admin have their screen on every incident? Chances are there are going to be many incidents that will be unseen by the live admin, and how can they administer a kick on someone when the admin failed to see the incident in the first place?

Does the CTRA catch every incident? No we don't because people want an 'instakick' for poor behavior, and because of this they feel, like yourself, that it's not worth 2 minutes of their time. Thats not education or community spirit, thats elitism, and something that should be left in the history books and is something the CTRA is trying to avoid.

How does this driver from a live admin server know what they did wrong? Do they have a replay they can reflect on, with a description of what they did wrong? If the penalized driver is allowed on the server, what else will the admin miss when giving a rundown of what happened to the penalized driver? Because there is no proof, only the admins opinion on the incident, will that person believe them? The drivers that are genuinely trying to learn how to race will be afraid of being kicked if they did something wrong, to me something seems wrong when you have to rely on fear to keep them in the right. This is they type of server you are asking for if we kick people without question or review as a live admin does. Personally we might as well be the Gestapo then...

Sure this type of totalitarian approach will bring people in tow, but people are not really learning anything and it's defiantly not a learning environment where people would want to learn in. For an experienced driver like yourself, it's great. There is no hassle, all the drivers that you would have to tip-toe around are gone, but it's doing nothing for the community, with exception for the elitists.


I could be totally off on all this, but thats how I feel, obviously. If I didn't feel this way I wouldn't be a CTRA admin...

LOL I wonder where I remembered that page, I tried to find it on the CTRA site.... I think I need to goto bed, my temper went hours ago, now my common sense...oh wait....

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

ROFL at that.

Are those known unknowns, or unknown unknowns? Or perhaps unknown knowns....

I suppose they're things that we know that we don't know. But for sure there are also thing that we don't know that we don't know.

LOL yeah, it all sounds very professional though so it makes up for the lack of proper information

Quote from SpikeyMarcoD :

Very stunned its a requirement for UKCT to be able to read

I think it's a new requirement upcoming for the new fiscal year. Last year the highest requirement was that you had 2 eyes. The other one, which I successfully fulfilled in a Stock Cup race is running out of fuel on the last lap of a league race...

I'm trying... it's just soooo boring....

Quote from SamH :

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving. I think what is needed is a comprehensive reporting system and supporting admin and appeal procedures.

I agree 100% with Becky, a live admin can't make a good call. Good calls come from close and meticulous review. Review happens after a race, not mid-race. A live admin amounts to a figurehead gimmick or a substitute for a server's InSim application, to start the race and collect results.

The first eTM race comes into mind myself... :doh:

I concur, live admining does not work. The admin will only manage to get glimpses of the infraction, and the rest would be guesswork, better off to view the incidents offline, which reminds me... I am crap Sam, kick me in the rear...only 100 more pages to read in my book...

Quote from marzman :

I think it's not more then logical a system for what you have to pay with organized races and a live steward has higher standards. Almost every other organized (free) league has that too.

To have all content, and have a years access it will be $266 if I worked it out correctly. $155 of that is monthly subscriptions... And this is including a $60 discount you get when purchasing an annual subscription.

"What Gameplay Options Are Included?

Note: iRacing will continually develop and gameplay options will be added throughout its development. Just because it is not listed in the launch material is no indication it will not be added. This section will be updated as we learn of new features to be added

Live groove: unknown
Animated pit crews: unknown
What are the garage options on the different cars: unknown
Are there day to night transitions: unknown
Is a spectator mode included: unknown
Weather - is rain included: Not at launch
Changeable weather: unknown
Clutch support: unknown
Driver changes: unknown
Ability to join in qualy: unknown
Ability to rejoin mid race: unknown
Are non US character sets supported: unknown
Is telemetry included: unknown
What kind of driver stats can be displayed: unknown
Can engines catch fire, drop oil etc.: unknown"

Personally we are lax in our processing and enforcement. But then it's supposed to be a learning environment where drivers teach drivers to race in a pick-up and play format. It's still WIP and there is still stuff missing to help with this learning, but it's up to you guys to teach the community how to race, we only give you all the tools.

I don't know if it's a compliment or not to be directly compared to R2P which is a service you pay, what $12.95 for a standard membership and 17.97 for a premium? On top of that R2P is a LEAGUE organizer, we don't do that....YET You cannot get pick-up races on this.

Quote from SamH :

hehe.. confused me too, but I know Chris upholds the same rules I do and we're very clear on this particular rule, so I suspect he's posting from work, with his head between two very large magnetic coils, and it's coming across wrongly

Midrace joiners definitely cannot overtake. Technically they shouldn't pressure other cars either, but the car ahead should be able to distinguish midrace joiners from genuine competitors and should be able to resist the temptation to drive defensively and risk their own race. I think that's the essence of the intention in Chris's post.

[edit] If a midrace joiner is reported for pressuring competitors, we will pull them aside and lecture them. If they establish this habit, they will ultimately find themselves on the wrong side of the rulebook, and we'll hit them with it. We had hard-cover versions printed for this specific reason.

Yes, I was trying to convey that, but it seems I didn't do it very well.

Taking the rule literally Sam is correct, midrace joiners cannot pass anyone. The spirit of the rule, and the reason it was created was to prevent accidents and a midrace joiner passes at his/her own risk.

Sam and I technically did say the same thing thereabouts. I just took a 'spirit' approach to the rule, while Sam was stating the 'literal' meaning.

To be specific, NO, midrace joiners cannot pass anyone and when we receive reports of a midrace joiner causing an incident, they are at fault and will be penalized. This has been from pretty much day 1, but then we can only handle incidents that people report on.

Part of racing is paying attention to detail. The driver that started the race can easily know if the person behind them is a lapped vehicle by looking at the minimap, or by looking at time differences screen, if the driver does not see that someone is right up their behind on sector times, and there is no blue flag. Then the next logical leap would be to say that this person is a mid race joiner, who may be considerably faster than them and let them by.

Second, if someone makes a mistake because someone is pressuring them, then they deserved to be passed. This is different than the midrace joiner causing contact. Besides, if the driver was truely using his/her brain. They would use all tools available for each situation and see that this person is a midrace joiner and would slide wide on a corner and let them pass.

Personally I have done this on many occasions, both on the receiving and sending end.

I don't see a problem with letting people put fast laps in as a midrace joiner. If people are becoming flustered when their rear view mirror is full, then they are missing a racing skill and have something to improve upon and these instances should be used as training exercises in maintaining a person's cool while pressured.

Quote from three_jump :

What he said, only better than I could ever write it

Ditto

Quote from SamH :

I think that's a good idea, actually. We run the thing we christened "concurrent qualifying", where your grid position is determined by your fastest lap, but I think for CTRA records, you should only achieve that by participating in a full race.

I'll add that to my to-do list.

I thought it was already like that :scratches head: